Linux Support

[WeaZeLb0y]

When is support planned for linux? I don't know anything about the architecture of the plugin, but most plugins only require files to be put in the plugins and features directory of Eclipse. Would it be possible to take the files from these directories and run it on linux?

Thanks

[Eric Clayberg]

When is support planned for linux?

The beta and initial release will be Windows only. We do hope to release a Linux version after that.

I don't know anything about the architecture of the plugin, but most plugins only require files to be put in the plugins and features directory of Eclipse. Would it be possible to take the files from these directories and run it on linux?

No. We have a couple of DLLs that will work only with Windows, and we also have a lot of COM/OLE magic that makes it a Windows only tool for now.

[ScienceMan]

When is support planned for linux?

The beta and initial release will be Windows only. We do hope to release a Linux version after that.

Please allow me to encourage you very, very strongly to develop first for Linux, and only later for other platforms (starting with Unix-based ones). THis is important if you want to reach the development community, especially for scientific applications. As this is where a lot of innovation takes place, it is important to treat platforms at least on a balanced basis. Eclipse and Java, Javascript, C++, C, etc. are well suited to a cross-platform approach and it seems a shame to take a Windows-oriented approach to such cross-platform tools.

Our primary user base is Linux, followed by Mac OS X and other forms of Unix... Windows runs a distant last place among our scientific and technical users, who are the primary early adopters of such code.

[Konstantin.Scheglov]

As this is where a lot of innovation takes place, it is important to treat platforms at least on a balanced basis. Eclipse and Java, Javascript, C++, C, etc. are well suited to a cross-platform approach and it seems a shame to take a Windows-oriented approach to such cross-platform tools.

We did first version for Windows just because I know better how to work with OLE/COM under Windows than with XPCOM of Mozilla.

[Eric Clayberg]

Please allow me to encourage you very, very strongly to develop first for Linux, and only later for other platforms (starting with Unix-based ones).

We certainly agree that Linux is important (we support it for all of our other products), but it is nowhere near as important as Windows in the overall Eclipse user community.

According to the recent Evans Data research study commissioned by Eclipse.org, over 84% of Eclipse users use some form of Windows. Linux is used by about 9% and the Mac about 2%. All other Unix variants add up to less than 4%.

This closely matches what we have seen with our own user base (with possibly even a higher Window usage than what Evans Data saw).

Here's the graph and associated raw data from the report:

This is important if you want to reach the development community, especially for scientific applications.

The scientific development community represents a small fraction of the overall Eclipse community...much smaller than the development communities centered around finance, manufacturing, insurance, telecom, etc.

Here's the Eclipse usage by industry:

As this is where a lot of innovation takes place, it is important to treat platforms at least on a balanced basis. Eclipse and Java, Javascript, C++, C, etc. are well suited to a cross-platform approach and it seems a shame to take a Windows-oriented approach to such cross-platform tools.

Our primary user base is Linux, followed by Mac OS X and other forms of Unix... Windows runs a distant last place among our scientific and technical users, who are the primary early adopters of such code.

I agree vis-a-vis scientic users, but disagree vis-a-vis early adopters. Most of the cutting edge Eclipse development shops that I know of are using Windows (as is the case with most Eclipse.org committers and member companies).

That said, we fully intend to support Linux with GWT Designer (as we have done with Swing Designer and SWT Designer - the other two components of WindowBuilder). That won't happen during the beta and is unlikely to happen in the initial release. This has more to do with the complexities of dynamically managing GWT hosted mode under Linux than it does with our interest in doing it (it was hard enough just getting t working under Windows). For the beta and initial release, we are focused on making the entire product functionally complete. Support for 2nd tier operating systems will come a bit later.

[ScienceMan]

We certainly agree that Linux is important (we support it for all of our other products), but it is nowhere near as important as Windows in the overall Eclipse user community.
...
That said, we fully intend to support Linux with GWT Designer (as we have done with Swing Designer and SWT Designer - the other two components of WindowBuilder). That won't happen during the beta and is unlikely to happen in the initial release.

Thank you for your reply. Even in consideration of your impressive market share graphs, I stand firmly by my previous statements.

GWT for Eclipse without support for Linux, Mac OS X, etc. is useless to me and to my community of users. Based on your response, I will likely withdraw from the beta development list, and will be unlikely to use this tool in the future.

[Eric Clayberg]

GWT for Eclipse without support for Linux, Mac OS X, etc. is useless to me and to my community of users. Based on your response, I will likely withdraw from the beta development list, and will be unlikely to use this tool in the future.

OK...just keep in mind that neither of us is stating that we don't feel that Linux is important or that we don't intend to support it in GWT Designer.

It just isn't going to happen in the next month prior to our release date. It very likely could and will occur soon thereafter.

[tomcous]

Team and associates are 'nix-ers ... Mac OS X / Mandriva / Fedora ...
... but I'm more likely to use and very anxious to try ... may have to setup 2nd'ry XP station ...

E.T.A. for GWT on Mac OSX? ...

[Eric Clayberg]

E.T.A. for GWT on Mac OSX? ...

We are actively working on OSX support now, but I don't have a firm date yet (hopefully sooner rather than later as long as we don't hit any showstoppers).

We did a lot of work to get the product running under Linux, and our hope is that much of that work (and refactoring) pays off with respect to OSX.

[pds1602]

E.T.A. for GWT on Mac OSX? ...

We are actively working on OSX support now, but I don't have a firm date yet (hopefully sooner rather than later as long as we don't hit any showstoppers).

We did a lot of work to get the product running under Linux, and our hope is that much of that work (and refactoring) pays off with respect to OSX.

I agree with one of the previous posters. What you see in the market analysis is irrelevent to your target developer, at least right now. Most people I know develop in other systems besides windows, mostly linux or osx. And what you are looking for right now are developers that have influence in their companies. For this audience, osx is probably paramount followed by linux and then windows. IMO anyway. Feel free to disagree.

I can't wait for the osx version...and I'm aleady starting to stipulate your product as the primary way of developing the next generation of our products. I don't care what my developers use but the best use osx or linux. The osx version will certainly accelerate the use of your product and it's these influential users (generally using osx, linux, unix) that drive the innovation in their companies and thereby drive the usage of the windows version. Cause and effect I think they call it.

Support these users from the start and you will see your sales increase.

[Eric Clayberg]

I agree with one of the previous posters. What you see in the market analysis is irrelevent to your target developer, at least right now.

I disagree. Eclipse.org itself commissioned that study to better understand its own user base. Their results show that 84% of current Eclipse users are using Windows. That closely matches the results in other similar surveys and matches our own user data for our other products.

Based on what I have seen, Linux and OSX usage is much more common in smaller development shops. Most corporate IT shops only use Windows and many companies only allow Windows to be used for development. Internally, we allow our developers to use any platform they want. We have two that prefer OSX, two that prefer Linux and more than twenty who prefer Windows. Our web designer and CEO also both use OSX. I happen to have machines running all three in my office. While I have been a Mac fan for almost 23 years (and have a 128K Mac to prove it), I prefer using Windows for Eclipse-based development.

Most people I know develop in other systems besides windows, mostly linux or osx. And what you are looking for right now are developers that have influence in their companies. For this audience, osx is probably paramount followed by linux and then windows.

While this might be true for companies that allow OSX to be used, those companies represent a small fraction of the companies that we sell to.

BTW, here are some stats from our own activaton records. We have had both a Windows and Linux version of GWT Designer available for more than a week now. In the last seven days, we have had ~40 (7%) people activate the Linux version and ~500 (93%) activate the Windows version (a ~12 to 1 ratio and pretty close to what I would have expected given the Eclipse survey data presented earlier).

If I look at the rest of our products and focus only on those products that work with Windows, Linux and OSX, the results are even more dramatic: ~100 for Linux, ~40 for OSX, and ~2250 for Windows (4%, 2% and 94% respectively). I suppose one thing our data does show is that GWT users are slightly more likely to be using Linux than users of our other products (7% vs. 4%). Once we have an OSX version of GWT Designer available, I would expect similar results (maybe 3-4% will ultimately be using OSX).

I can't wait for the osx version

Hopefuly, you won't need to wait too long.

[Eric Clayberg]

A taste...

[tomcous]

... yummy ... ready for a full serving here!

[jvogel]

Just adding my voice to the list of those eager for an OS X port. GWT is breath-takingly exciting and I'm almost certain it's the right direction for our company's future projects to take. Your Builder is brilliant. If it was OS X, we'd be developing with it today. Please let us know about any further developments ...

[Eric Clayberg]

We have been working on it around the clock, but it is proving to be quite challenging. We are getting closer, but still have at least one show stopper to get past.

For anyone interested, you can follow the discussion on the Google Web Toolkit Contributors newsgroup.